Immortal v0.10c

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zbhcn
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:59 am

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by zbhcn »

After the multiplayer game test with my partners, I found the following shortcomings:

1. When 300 population CAP, the arms in the imperial-age are relatively single. there are too many arms that do not cost gold , so the attack power in the imperial-age period is not strong.

2. Unable to effectively resist meat scout rush and harassment.

3. it can't cut trees on Michi map.

4. At most, only two allies can attack one enemy together, not more allies,so there are not enough troops to completely destroy the enemy.

5. There are too many archers and skirms, Even if gold is enough,which are not as powerful as paladin.and It's very easy to be restrained by mangonel-line.

6. After the enemy's wall was broken, they could not enter in time to kill the enemy's villagers.

7. Can we build buildings and houses between ourselves and the enemy so as to protect ourselves and get enough space for farming.

I expect it to be updated in time and become better, and finally release the DE version

Aynshtaynn
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Posts: 49
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Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by Aynshtaynn »

Great AI on so many levels, especially micro-wise. But there are a few problems, difficulties, if you will. Keep in mind that most of my examples are about archer line or missile unit builds.
  • If Immortal is committed to raiding, killing villagers will be the AI's only priority. One scout can and will decimate a whole army of archers.
  • Micro is beyond terrible against siege. The army dodges the first shot of an onager, then run into the second one, losing half the army, even if the army can outrange the onager with good micro, which is what Immortal is very good at. My guess is Immortal gets confused and think it's safe after the first shot, and ignore siege when microing against many units.
  • Immortal will never push leads. Raids are great, often very successful, but then the army will sit on the edge of the base, or surround it if possible, and stay there killing units until they are forced to fall back while the enemy bounces back. In 1vs1 it doesn't matter because Immortal will outboom the enemy while doing that but in team games it's a big problem.
  • This is a big one: Immortal will ignore relics. Not always, as I've seen a monk picking up one, but most of the time.
  • Missile units will delay shoots for way too long when fighting an army, even sometimes not shoot a single volley before dying. It usually happens big group vs another big group.
Edit: New information.
  • Especially in team games, Immortal never falls back to defend the base, even with huge armies, therefore loses too much to raids unnecessarily.
October 13th
  • Immortal gets confused about strategy when the Victory settings is Conquest instead of Standard. He may go Fast Feudal strategy in a walled map for example. This is especially a problem since his reluctance to pick up relics because losing to relic timer is annoying in a good game.
  • I mentioned Immortal's micro against siege. It's also bad when using siege, causing a lot of friendly losses. Also may get confused and attack ground for a long time, and let his own troops walking through that.
  • It's good that Immortal builds one more villager before Feudal age when skipping loom. But doing it before every age kind of defeats the purpose. I think missing "(disable_self)" after line 65040 causes that, but I'm not sure if that would cause new problems like cancelling that extra villager for age advancement.
  • May lose units to wolves. Immortal sometimes explore using an archer or spearman, and lure wolves in the map. This is good when the unit dies in enemy base which I suspect what Immortal is trying to do, but they usually die in or close to an allied base, causing problem for team economy instead.

TheMaximalBeing
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Posts: 91
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Location: Australia

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by TheMaximalBeing »

This is a an alpha version of Immortal for DE. I am not happy with it and there are still many DE bugs that need to be fixed. But since I have limited time for testing I though I should just release it and wait for the feedback. Please let me know if you see any weird behaviour. BTW I still haven't added the new Indian civs. For now, you must not have any players (enemy or ally) that use these.

(removed -- see update)
Last edited by TheMaximalBeing on Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

GamesGod
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Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 4:01 am
Location: Russia

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by GamesGod »

Oh, it's very good news :) thx
Developer of GamesGod AI

venomus
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Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by venomus »

I've played a few games on Nomad and so far the only bugs I've seen:

- Takes a long time to find a place to build the TC
- It usually puts the first two houses away from the TC.
- In relation to these two first bugs, sometimes it changes the place of the TC construction having the villagers in the other side of the map wasting much more time.

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wattle
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Posts: 196
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Location: Germany

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by wattle »

venomus wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:59 am
I've played a few games on Nomad and so far the only bugs I've seen:

- Takes a long time to find a place to build the TC
- It usually puts the first two houses away from the TC.
- In relation to these two first bugs, sometimes it changes the place of the TC construction having the villagers in the other side of the map wasting much more time.
I think Immortal is not yet taught to play nomad, so its probably not a bug so to say. Its probably an emergency rule that builds the TC.
MangudAI-all-in (wip, to be continued, when I retire from work :P )
Btw, thank you s64 for your effort. Was a pleasure to cross your way. Have a good time.

TheMaximalBeing
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Posts: 91
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Location: Australia

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by TheMaximalBeing »

zbhcn wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:39 am
After the multiplayer game test with my partners, I found the following shortcomings:

1. When 300 population CAP, the arms in the imperial-age are relatively single. there are too many arms that do not cost gold , so the attack power in the imperial-age period is not strong.

2. Unable to effectively resist meat scout rush and harassment.

3. it can't cut trees on Michi map.

4. At most, only two allies can attack one enemy together, not more allies,so there are not enough troops to completely destroy the enemy.

5. There are too many archers and skirms, Even if gold is enough,which are not as powerful as paladin.and It's very easy to be restrained by mangonel-line.

6. After the enemy's wall was broken, they could not enter in time to kill the enemy's villagers.

7. Can we build buildings and houses between ourselves and the enemy so as to protect ourselves and get enough space for farming.

I expect it to be updated in time and become better, and finally release the DE version
1. Most likely it didn't make enough trade carts. I haven't tested it on 300 pop so I do not expect it to play well. Some day I will get around to it.

2. It wont properly detect this and probably train spearmen too late. Also defence against this kind of harassment is missing. Will get around to it eventually.

3. I don't play michi but even if I added this it would be a lot of work to make the army correctly path through the opening. So don't expect it for a while.

4. In fact there is no team coordination at all yet, although allies players may "coordinate" by accident. I have been working on a solution for this already. But it is being delayed by a couple of other things first (in particular DE fixes and walling).

5. I think it should make paladin if playing a paladin civ. What civs where you using?

6. Walls will cause pathing problems in general. For now I suggest you don't make walls. Will be fixed eventually but will be a lot of work to make it reliable.

7. Should already do this. If not can you share a screenshot?

TheMaximalBeing
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Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by TheMaximalBeing »

Aynshtaynn wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:46 am
Great AI on so many levels, especially micro-wise. But there are a few problems, difficulties, if you will. Keep in mind that most of my examples are about archer line or missile unit builds.
  • If Immortal is committed to raiding, killing villagers will be the AI's only priority. One scout can and will decimate a whole army of archers.
  • Micro is beyond terrible against siege. The army dodges the first shot of an onager, then run into the second one, losing half the army, even if the army can outrange the onager with good micro, which is what Immortal is very good at. My guess is Immortal gets confused and think it's safe after the first shot, and ignore siege when microing against many units.
  • Immortal will never push leads. Raids are great, often very successful, but then the army will sit on the edge of the base, or surround it if possible, and stay there killing units until they are forced to fall back while the enemy bounces back. In 1vs1 it doesn't matter because Immortal will outboom the enemy while doing that but in team games it's a big problem.
  • This is a big one: Immortal will ignore relics. Not always, as I've seen a monk picking up one, but most of the time.
  • Missile units will delay shoots for way too long when fighting an army, even sometimes not shoot a single volley before dying. It usually happens big group vs another big group.
Edit: New information.
  • Especially in team games, Immortal never falls back to defend the base, even with huge armies, therefore loses too much to raids unnecessarily.
October 13th
  • Immortal gets confused about strategy when the Victory settings is Conquest instead of Standard. He may go Fast Feudal strategy in a walled map for example. This is especially a problem since his reluctance to pick up relics because losing to relic timer is annoying in a good game.
  • I mentioned Immortal's micro against siege. It's also bad when using siege, causing a lot of friendly losses. Also may get confused and attack ground for a long time, and let his own troops walking through that.
  • It's good that Immortal builds one more villager before Feudal age when skipping loom. But doing it before every age kind of defeats the purpose. I think missing "(disable_self)" after line 65040 causes that, but I'm not sure if that would cause new problems like cancelling that extra villager for age advancement.
  • May lose units to wolves. Immortal sometimes explore using an archer or spearman, and lure wolves in the map. This is good when the unit dies in enemy base which I suspect what Immortal is trying to do, but they usually die in or close to an allied base, causing problem for team economy instead.
  1. I'm not too sure about this. From my testing scouts are quite awful against archers. Maybe it can abuse older AIs with no micro, but against properly micro'ed archers this would be suicide. The scout micro definitely needs more work, but attacking archers is not the right approach (unless already at a large advantage).
  2. Immortal does not know what mangonels are yet. It just treats them the same as archers.
  3. What you are seeing initially is the well optimized BOs (which were taken from https://buildorderguide.com/) to create the initial army. After this Immortal places multiple TCs and has no resources left for military production. To maintain pressure I would need to change the BO to account for extra TCs or stay on 1 TC for longer.
  4. I never got around to adding this. I don't think it is a big deal as relics only have a small trickle of gold. Only in 1v1 late game is it a problem, but we don't get there often.
  5. Yes I agree. Its on my todo list
  6. Yes need to work on this eventually. In general it is not capable of pulling pack only part of its army.
  7. Victory settings have no impact and are not mentioned in the AI at all. Are you sure you tested it properly?
  8. The attack ground bug has been there for a while. I'm not sure what it causing it. Seems like a UP/game bug. The friendly fire will be fixed soon.
  9. Should stop doing this once it gets loom - which should happen in castle age.
  10. Yeah I have ignored it for now. Hopefully doesn't happen too often.

TheMaximalBeing
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Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by TheMaximalBeing »

wattle wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:19 pm
venomus wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:59 am
I've played a few games on Nomad and so far the only bugs I've seen:

- Takes a long time to find a place to build the TC
- It usually puts the first two houses away from the TC.
- In relation to these two first bugs, sometimes it changes the place of the TC construction having the villagers in the other side of the map wasting much more time.
I think Immortal is not yet taught to play nomad, so its probably not a bug so to say. Its probably an emergency rule that builds the TC.
This is correct.

clc8901
Forumer
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: Immortal v0.9c

Post by clc8901 »

TheMaximalBeing wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:42 am
This is a an alpha version of Immortal for DE. I am not happy with it and there are still many DE bugs that need to be fixed. But since I have limited time for testing I though I should just release it and wait for the feedback. Please let me know if you see any weird behaviour. BTW I still haven't added the new Indian civs. For now, you must not have any players (enemy or ally) that use these.
My observations:

-Only unintended behavior I could notice is that Immortal bugs out sometimes when luring boars (mainly the rhino variants).

-In team games the pockets tend to idle their armies for long periods of time before attacking.

-The micro isn't as strong as the UP version, but I'm sure your already aware of this/working on it. It struggles against mangonel fire.

-Immortal hard crashes on arena

Other than that, it's still comparable to its UP version in terms of overall strength.

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